you are currently viewing: Discussion Forum
 
 

 
 

The Rorke's Drift VC Discussion Forum
(View Discussion Rules)

** IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO ALL USERS **

PLEASE NOTE: This forum is now inactive and is provided for reference purposes only. The live forum is available at www.rorkesdriftvc.com/forum


(Back To Topic List)

DateOriginal Topic
18th April 2002PHOTO of ZULU WAR SOLDIER??
By Janie
I have recently acquired a photo of an English Soldier with a Sphinx over the words Egypt on his collar, and 24 on his shoulder. It was professionally matted and framed in Pueblo, Colorado USA many years ago. Can anybody help me identify this photo? http://www.boomspeed.com/lasal/zulu.jpg or <a href="http://www.boomspeed.com/lasal/zulu.jpg">click here</a>
DateReplies
20th April 2002Barry Iacoppi
Hi Janie

I am no expert so I sent your photo to a mate in the U.S. Below is his reply. All I can add to it is that the bayonet is for a bolt action rifle and as such means it was taken at a date after Rorke's Drift. Both pictures were the same size and I was unable to blow them up. If you find out anything more about our sergeant please let me know. Such detective work is fun.
Barry

Well, he is obviously infantry. Unfortunately I cannot get a good look at the collar dogs. The original needs to be looked at under a magnifying glass. They do resemble the Sphinx, but that only narrows it down . Assuming thats what they are, then there are the following
Lincolnshire Rgt.
Gloucestershire Rgt.
East Lancashire Rgt.
South Staffordshire Rgt.
South Lancashire Rgt.
North Lincoln Regt. (10th foot)
Royal Irish (18th foot)
Warwickshire Rgt. (24th foot)
North Gloucestershire Rgt. (28th foot)
30th foot
West Norfolk Rgt. (54th foot)

The colour facings on the uniform would most likely identify him , but its a black and white photo. It might be possible to read what is on his shoulder if one magnifies it. Either regimental number or shoulder title. sorry, thats the best I can do.

----- Original
20th April 2002Janie
Just to confirm that I have used a jewelers loop to examine the picture. There is a definite 24 on his shoulder, with the 2 slightly higher than the 4. There is a white rectangular patch on his left breast. And because of the angle of his body, I cannot see anything above the chevron on his right arm, unfortunately. The following names have been eliminated: he's not Sergt. Cooper from F coy 1/24th, he's not Band Sergt. Gamble 1/24th, he's not one of the sergts. from B coy 2/24th nor from H coy 1/24th. Note that to see the pic, you have to capitalize the JPG. It is http://www.boomspeed.com/lasal/zulu.JPG The pic that shows is 3 1/2" X 5", the matting is 2" around, and the entire frame is over 7" X 8 1/2". Framed many years ago!
21st April 2002Janie
Barry has sent me the following information from a collector friend of his: "He is a Colour Sgt. as can be seen by the scarlet sash, and also by his P1860 (modified to fit the M-H rifle)sword bayonet. He is wearing the scarlet serge frock." Any more clues as to who this guy is???
21st April 2002John Young
Janie,

I hate to correct Barry, but as stated outside the forum, your man is a sergeant.

Given the dimensions it is a cabinet card, rather than the c.d.v. I previously mentioned.

I am puzzled by your comment 'with the 2 slightly higher than the 4.' How much higher on the shoulder strap? Or are they almost horizontal?

You can safely discount any of the Isandlwana casualties including those you mention above, if we presume the medal ribbon is that for 1877-8-9. You can also discount any of those in 'B' Company, 2nd/24th who held the rank of Sergeant at the time of Rorke's Drift.

Sadly, that still leaves a number of men, who would have held the rank of Sergeant when the photograph was taken circa 1880-81.

I take it there is no clue as to where the photographer's studio was? Which might narrow down which of the two battalions of 24th, he might be from.

John Young,
Chairman,
Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.
21st April 2002Janie
It's not that the 24 is up high on the shoulder strap. Instead, the 2 is slightly higher than the 4, meaning that the horizontal line that makes the bottom of the 2 is right across from the horizontal line that makes the middle of the 4. There is no clue as to where it was taken. The photo, which was fragile even when it was framed so many years ago, was glued to the backing. He is sitting on a light color, weave-type design chair with diamonds in the weave. It was probably a cabinet size photo, close to 6" X 4" before it was matted. Janie
25th April 2002Julian Whybra
Your photo is taken 1879-81. I’m listing all men with the rank of sergeant on 22.1.1879 and
all men that had been or subsequently became sergeants 1877-1881 (there were more than
normal in order to replace those kia at Isandhlwana). I’m assuming that your man is not a
lance-sergeant at the moment.
Your man has no markings for a Colour-Sergeant or any of the other ‘trade’ sergeants.
I place your man aged mid to late twenties. In general the 2/24th were younger men than
1/24th, but this is a generalization only. All those killed in action, wrong in appearance, at the
end of their service (being discharged) or too old I reject and place in ordinary print. Likely
candidates are in bold (unfortunately the 'bold' has not come out in the cutting and pasting but, Janie, I've e-mailed you the original as an attachment - let me know if you have problems).
I have other individual information but that’s not necessary at the moment.

1/24th

Sergeants
Aylward, J. discharged November 1880
Ainsworth, Peter kia Isandhlwana 22.1.79
Bennett, George kia Isandhlwana
Beresford, John Peirse de la Poer (Sergt. 11.3.78-8.6.81; commissioned 2nd Lieut.)
Bradbury, John
Bradley, Daniel kia Isandhlwana
Butterley, J.
Cambrey, William
Clarkson, John kia Isandhlwana
Coholan, William kia Isandhlwana
Cooper, Thomas kia Isandhlwana
Deeming, Thomas
Edwards, John kia Isandhlwana
Emery, G.
Fay, Thomas kia Isandhlwana
Field, Joseph Thomas born 10.11.1851, died in London March 1927
Fitzmaurice, John - large heavy man with white stripe of hair in forelock
Fleming, Michael born 1847
Fowden, James kia Isandhlwana
Franklin, J.
Giles, Edward kia Isandhlwana
Hart, W.
Hayward, William discharged 1880 held the Indian Mutiny Medal 1857, old soldier
Heppenstall, Christopher kia Isandhlwana
Hooton, Samuel
Hornibrook, Michael kia Isandhlwana
Jamieson, Robert born 1852
Johnston, J.
Jones, James born 1855
Kenny, Edwin, died Kimberley, S.Africa 1906
Lambert, T.
Moore, Joseph Jesse born 1847
Morrissey, Patrick
Parsons, William kia Isandhlwana
Partis, Frederick born 1851
Piall, Alfred kia Isandhlwana
Price, John born 1856
Reardon, John kia Isandhlwana
Richards, T.
Sale, A.
Shepherd, A.H.
Skinner, T.
Smith, B.
Smith, Joseph kia Isandhlwana
Smith, William (reduced to Corporal 22.7.78)
Street, Henry
Taylor, G.
Thomas G.
Turner, R.
Upton, George kia Isandhlwana
White, James
Wilson, Edward survivor of Rorke’s Drift 22/23.1.1879

Corporals
Chislett, Allun (promoted Sergt. 3.11.1880)
McKinnell, G. (promoted Sergt. after 1879)
Parker, Henry born 1845 (promoted Sergt. after 1879)
Lance-sergeant
Wilson, F. (promoted Sergt. after 1879)

2/24th

Colour-Sergeant
Roper, Charles (reduced to Sergt. Jan-Nov. 1879). Discharged 8.11.79

Sergeants
1619 Allen, W.
Burrows, William born 1855
Cann, Charles (promoted Colour-Sergt. 23.1.79)
Care, F. enlisted in 1865, born before 1848
Carse, Henry kia Isandhlwana
Chute, John old soldier, discharged 1879-81, no medal issued
Curtis, Robert (died at Gibraltar 15.4.1880)
Cuthbert, Henry J. (promoted Colour-Sergt. 23.1.1879)
Daley, Edward (promoted Colour-Sergt. 23.1.1879)
Davis, Harvard (discharged 1.9.1879, brown hair, blue eyes, fair complexion)
Gallagher, Henry Edward born 1855, at Rorke’s Drift, discounted by photo (promoted
Col-Sergt. 26.1.81)
Henry, Thomas (reduced to Pvte. 13.1.1879)
Howes, James (discharged 29.1.80)
Jones, Robert aged 23 in 1879
Lacey, Percy aged 25 in 1879
Lines, John kia Isandhlwana
Lockyer, G. (promoted Col.-Sergt. 14.8.79)
McDonagh, James
Maxfield, Robert kia Rorke’s Drift
Morley, J.
Murray, T.
Redmond, M.F. (promoted Col.-Sergt. 1879-81)
Reeves, William J. kia Isandhlwana
Ross, John kia Isandhlwana
Rouston, William discharged 15.6.80 old soldier
Shaw, William kia Isandhlwana
Smith, George at Rorke’s Drift, aged 40 in 1879
Stratton, Alfred died of disease 30.4.78, no medal issued
Taylor, Joseph old soldier
Tigar, John born 1849 (promoted Col.-Sergt. 23.10.78)


Lance-Sergeant
2771 Allen, H. (promoted Sergt. 1879-81)
Coffey, John (promoted Sergt. 23.1.79. in F coy)
Hicks, J.H. (promoted Sergt. 29.1.79, reduced to Pvte. 1.4.79)
Mooney, Augustus (promoted Sergt. 13.3.79)
Morley, W. (promoted Sergt. 13.3.79)
Peek, R. (promoted Sergt. 23.1.79)
Powis, E. (promoted Sergt. 1879-81)
Taylor, James (promoted Sergt. 23.1.79; reduced to Pvte. 20.3.80)
Walsh, J.L.
Wilkins, George kia Isandhlwana
Windridge, Joseph at Rorke’s Drift, born 1839 (reduced to Pvte. 20.11.79) old soldier
Yapp, Henry (reduced to Sergt. 23.10.78, discharged soon afterwards) old soldier

Corporal
Andrews, Henry B. (promoted Sergt. 23.1.1879 in D coy)
Allen, William Watson (promoted Sergt. 16.6.1880, at Rorke’s Drift, discounted by photo)
Davies, George (promoted Sergt. Feb 1879-July 1881)
French, George born 1841, at Rorke’s Drift (promoted Sergt. 23.1.79, reduced to Pvte.
28.6.79)
Frost, Edward (promoted Sergt. 1879-1881)
Harding, John born 1859 (promoted Sergt. 19.2.79)
Harrison, B. (promoted Sergt. 23.1.79)
Hayes, Reuben (promoted Sergt. 1879-81)
Hick, T. (promoted Sergt 23.1.79) discharged before 1881
Hicks, George (promoted Sergt. 13.1.79)
Jones, Evan (promoted Lance-Sergt. 23.1.79; Sergt. 3.4.79)
Key, John at Rorke’s Drift (promoted Lance-Sergt. 19.2.79; Sergt. 20.3.80)
Neilson, R.McA. (promoted Sergt. 1.11.78)
Vousden, George (promoted Sergt. 1879-81)

Lance-Corporal
Barnes, H. (promoted Sergt. Feb 1879-1881)

Private
Devery, John born 1859, height 4’ 11”, transferred to 2/24th May 1879, L-Corp. Dec
1879; Corp. Mar 1880; Sergt. May 1881; Col.-Sergt. Dec 1887)
25th April 2002John Young
Can I just sneak at correction in one of Julian's above entries:
For 'Allen, William Watson' listed under 2nd Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, read Allan, V.C., William Wilson, appointed to the rank of Lance-Sergeant on 11th November, 1879.

John Young,
Chairman,
Anglo-Zulu War Research Society.
31st May 2002Stephen
Uh....thank you Julian.